Lies, Damn Lies, Statistics and – Mission Statements
August 7, 2008
From the wonderful guys and (hopefully!) girls of hr.alltop.com > I came across a HR Wench (Jenn Barnes) blog that ticked me off enough to start this blog.
I’ve always had beef with the whole concept oh Human Resources (how grand (and demeaning) it sounds). But reading this blog (and others on the same topic) I just have to be in awe of how these people are just as dismissive in blogosphere as they are in person. Sure, in all fairness, there just has to be one person working in HR that is normal and likable, but 99% of them are incredibly rude, dismissive and couldn’t care less for the Human Resources they manage.
The actual post I wish to talk about here is Job Application Lies and Interview Truths – Ask HR Wench by HR Wench.
A reader asks,
Should I admit to potential employers that I was fired? I heard that by law, potential employers can’t ask previous employers if you were discharged (fired). Is this true? (…)
And hr wench replies, (original bold codes)
Where do people hear these things? (…)
No, it is not against any federal or state law that I know of for potential employers to ask your previous employers if you were fired.
In fact, if such a law exists in the USA, I will eat my keyboard. With ketchup.
Now, of course that such law does not exist. Not in the US, not anywhere. But it should!! Most companies nowadays do have policies where they only give out neutral information, and this is the fair thing to do. Anything else is not only rude, but give too much power to the former employers. Of course, there is no law against it. And wouldn’t you know it, a charming reply from a person responsible of managing human beings. Manage away…
Further along, the topic develops – is it alright to withhold or out right lie about these facts (and others) to the potential employee. Of course, the answer is no in the rosy world of human resources.
My advice: YES, DO LIE ABOUT IT! Lie about the silly things that might not get you hired, because you do need to eat, remember – your children too. Do not lie about the things you will need to do on the job – example: managing MSSQL data base. But for the rest of the stuff – LIE!
And do remember that your potential employer is lying to you too. The job sounds oh so wonderful now – in a job interview. But, wait – there is a job description and there is real life job – yes, you know it – the one where your boss does almost no work and you end up doing it, or your coworkers always argue, or the company promises you salary increases every year and perks that never come to pass.
In my personal opinion, EVERYONE needs to always plan on going ‘solo’ someday. Hopefully sooner rather than later. You must be your own boss if you are smart, innovative and enthusiastic – because very few companies will reward you properly. If you are not smart, innovative or enthusiastic then you really need to lie, or live a romantic life on the streets.
(…) There is something wrong with lying to a potential or current employer.
(…)
Third, if I sit down to an interview and a candidate tells me they lied on the application and would now like to tell me the real story, I am DONE with them. I will not hire someone that is blatantly dishonest & wastes my time. (…)
Let us put aside the logic (and the probability) of lying in a resume, then storming in and admitting everything in tears to the HR person. Imagine that, blatantly dishonest person wasting the time of a person who manages human resources. Who are you – hungry, cold and in tears – to demand time of such an individual who (BTW) contributes to society how exactly? At least you (if you get hired) would produce something (some code, some wool coats, some fish sticks).
Then, go apply for jobs and be honest on the applications and in interviews.
Honesty = Do NOT Get Hired. Think, please, if you will… How many employees would be hired if they all told the truth on questions such as: what is your weakness, how do handle work with 17 other (random) colleagues, where do you see yourself in 5 years…
That is ridiculous. But let us end with, what I feel, a REALLY sarcastic quote from HR Wench:
Best of luck!
August 7, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Is this really HR Wench just posing as a hater to get more press? Because that would be awesome.
August 8, 2008 at 7:08 am
@Laurie
I’m guessing you are in the PR business? Only they could come up with such insane (yet intriguing) idea.
(**quick visit**)
And no, you are in HR as well.. Ever considered a PR job?
August 8, 2008 at 1:28 pm
It’s easy to critique other people. Hindsight is always 20/20. You ask how an HR person contributes to society. How does a critic contribute to society? Have you had many people thank you for being a critic? I have people thank me all the time for helping them get the job. HR Wench’s advice is good. If a candidate got fired for being late and explains the situation to me, I may hire them. I’m definitely not going to hire someone that lies on their application if I call a reference and find out they were fired. The idea that lying is going to get someone a job and being honest would keep them from getting a job is…well, I’m just going to say that you give POOR application and interviewing advice. I hope you don’t apply for a job with me.
August 8, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I’m guessing that you have never been in a position where you have ever managed staff. I read resumes every day and if someone has the experience that I’m looking for I will call them (even if they indicate that they have been fired). However, if they LIE then forget it.
I don’t know why you hate HR so much. If you dislike it, then try to walk a mile in their shoes.
August 8, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I’m in HR and while everyone is entitled to their opinons, I would just add this disclaimer to your blog: if you get caught lying during the application/hiring process, even after you are hired (and these things often do pop up), it is immediate grounds for dismissal and you likely won’t be eligible for unemployment. There are ways to spin things, and ways to gloss over smudges on your resume, but outright lying can have it’s costs.
August 8, 2008 at 3:30 pm
@Sue
in my opinion critic does contribute if it actually gets more people to think about the world they are living in. however i have had/do have other jobs other than critiquing. hopefully you do not see my blog as an attack on human resources as it will certainly not be. this was just one thing that did not agree with me as there are many others.
also, when i did work for others i never lied and was always hired, and i did my job to the best of my abilities. i was hired by founders, by other people working there, and sometimes by HR and always the HR people did not care about me, what i can do, etc… they invented demented tests with stupid questions, etc… always ALWAYS was best for me to talk directly to the people i’d be working with, than the human resources people.
hope this helps further explain my point of view.
August 8, 2008 at 3:34 pm
@Kimberley
i have and am in position to manage staff (well half of them anyhow – sales is not my department) and while i wouldn’t like people lying about their actual skills i never asked nor do i care if and why they have been fired. not sure why i would want to.
August 8, 2008 at 3:40 pm
What do I contribute as an HR professional? Quite a bit. I work for you (employees)just an much as management. That distinction sets me apart from many of my fellow HR pros. All that aside, I don’t see why you think HR Wench gave bad advice. I have seen people get fired who don’t deserve it but most of the booted group got to hang around much longer than they should have.
The focus should really be on why someone was fired. If you were fired for being late, explain it. Most importantly, explain what was learned and how it won’t happen in your new job. By the way, it’s not usually HR you have to get through, it’s the hiring manager. HR gets to manage responsibility for things they don’t have authority for. We are the proverbial fall guy. Don’t shoot the messenger.
August 8, 2008 at 3:56 pm
@Ms Pinkslip
i actually don’t see ANY reason why you need to know why somebody was fired from a previous job. the reason can be: was late, did not get along, talked hard to boss, downsizing, etc… still not getting why any of these reasons would be important to you?
i said it already, it was always better for me to talk either to my potential boss or potential colleagues than some HR person with crazy ass ideas about managing human resources.
and always i never saw then again in all my time working for the company, except once on a lecture about not accepting bribes and such!? so how is that human resources?
if human resources is actually what you talk about – helping a person find the right job in the company and managing their everyday problems, ideas, fears, questions while employed then i would have NO PROBLEM with HR. i have yet to meet such a person/company.
luckily i now have to manage employees and a company and we have NO HR DEPARTMENT. :) we let employees help the new members and have an anonymous web page for all complaints that management reads. this helps deal with all questions and problems. again – NO HR DEPARTMENT.
BTW Ms Pinkslip sounds so cute to me :P
August 8, 2008 at 5:53 pm
@cccritique in response to Kimberely you said “i never asked nor do i care if and why they have been fired. not sure why i would want to.”
Great idea. Especially if the employee was fired for sexual harrassment/violence/stealing. Good idea to subject your current employees to that kind of person.
Do you really think HR people don’t care about anyone or are you just trying to start a stir?
Every bad hire costs a company 1.5X the employee’s annual salary. It is a moral imperative for the HR department to ask questions that show patterns of behavior.
August 8, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I can think of several reasons why you need to know why someone was fired: Theft, sexual harassment, gross incompetence, etc. Besides lying is a huge integrity issue.
August 8, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Most companies are looking for people with some integrity. Lying in an interview or on a job application is not the way to go. Not to mention, if your employer finds out you lied on an application it’s grounds for termination, so where’s it getting you? You’re out of a job and your reputation is shot. No wonder you want people to give neutral references!
And BTW, just to make an example but if Ms. Pinkslip were YOUR employee and you started making comments like that, THAT is why you need an HR department – to keep you out of potential legal hot water. Otherwise, without HR, it’s the blind leading the blind and no one really knows or understands the consequences of their employment decisions.
You would think, given your lack of an HR department, that you would welcome good, solid advice such as HR Wench’s. She knows her stuff; you could learn a TON from her if you’d bother to admit that you don’t know everything.
August 8, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Clarification – the comment towards Ms. Pinkslip I’m referring to is the last line of the post above mine…
August 8, 2008 at 7:25 pm
@Breanne Potter
well stealing, violence and harassment are indeed bad, but SERIOUSLY how often does that happen? never once to me. i’d rather give everyone the benefit of the doubt than subject everyone to the third degree because of a few bad apples.
how i deal with it is with a 9 months probation, when everyone needs to become familiar how we work, what people around us are like, and if they fit in.
of course i do not think HR people are all bad, just that i think they are not very useful because there are very few good ones and even they are ‘stifled’ by the corporation they work for. but without stirring you can never get the right answers other than the default ones.
innovation is the key and can only be accomplished by asking questions about things everyone already agreed on.
August 8, 2008 at 7:30 pm
@Amy
again, the HR department is not there for the COMPANY ONLY. it should not be, but that is the case, so there you have my reason for disliking human resources. if they were there to help employees as much as the company i’d not complain as much.
so companies have human resources and public relations and most workers have a line: “if you don’t like it – leave.”
of course i do not know everything and this is one way for me to get some answers. i do / did read her blog (can’t say all – but a lot) and will keep coming back from hr.alltop.com.
and i do apologize if i hurt Ms Pinkslip’s feelings :(
August 8, 2008 at 7:47 pm
I have had to term associates for theft, sexual harassment and gross incompetence. You are just lucky that you have yet to face those issues. But you will.
August 9, 2008 at 12:14 am
i actually don’t see ANY reason why you need to know why somebody was fired from a previous job.
Two words–Negligent hiring. Look it up.>
i said it already, it was always better for me to talk either to my potential boss or potential colleagues than some HR person with crazy ass ideas about managing human resources.
If HR has crazy ass ideas it’s usually because some crazy ass manager made a mess and expects us to clean it up. Do you have experience with HR as a manager or as an employee. Your perspective would be different in those roles.
and always i never saw then again in all my time working for the company, except once on a lecture about not accepting bribes and such!? so how is that human resources?
It’s not. That is training. We have a training department to take care of those issues. While I am capable of conducting training, my expertise is considerably different.
if human resources is actually what you talk about – helping a person find the right job in the company and managing their everyday problems, ideas, fears, questions while employed then i would have NO PROBLEM with HR. i have yet to meet such a person/company.
Now you have.
luckily i now have to manage employees and a company and we have NO HR DEPARTMENT. :) we let employees help the new members and have an anonymous web page for all complaints that management reads. this helps deal with all questions and problems. again – NO HR DEPARTMENT.
It’s those are the only things you consider HR capable of, you’re right, you don’t need HR. When you get an EEOC complaint or sued, let me know how it works out for you.
BTW Ms Pinkslip sounds so cute to me :P
Cute and charming.
August 9, 2008 at 12:16 am
And BTW, just to make an example but if Ms. Pinkslip were YOUR employee and you started making comments like that, THAT is why you need an HR department
Thanks.I love being sexually harrassed. Once you hit 30, it doesn’t come along everyday.
August 9, 2008 at 12:17 am
and i do apologize if i hurt Ms Pinkslip’s feelings :(
Since you are learning about HR, you should know we have thick skin and never take things personally.
August 9, 2008 at 8:59 am
@Ms Pinkslip
Thank you again for all your comments, I will consider them all very carefully. <3
August 9, 2008 at 5:00 pm
This is a great start to an important dialogue, Sasha. I’ll continue to read with interest.
August 9, 2008 at 5:06 pm
@hrwench
excellent – looking forward to it. i have a lot to learn after switching from employee to owner/manager.
August 9, 2008 at 6:55 pm
excellent – looking forward to it. i have a lot to learn after switching from employee to owner/manager.
See, you are already taking my advice.
August 9, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Ms Pinkslip
indeed :)
August 9, 2008 at 9:17 pm
How many employees have you hired in your life?
As someone who has hired hundreds, if not thousands, I can tell you that if you’re around HR for just a short time, you will have to fire people (or interview people) who do bad things. Things I’ve experienced from employees/candidates:
Violence
threats of violence
Sexual Harrassment (more times than I can count)
Masturbating at the office
Man exposing himself to office
embezzlement
theft of other people’s property
identity theft
illegal visa status
and many many more.
If you haven’t been in HR, you don’t know.
Sorry, I think that is just how it is. I am glad to see you engaging with other HR people in this discussion. I hope to hear you revise some of your earlier VERY STRONG opinions if we can show you how your earlier stance can be harmful.
August 9, 2008 at 10:27 pm
@Breanne Potter
not a lot. so far we needed sales people and it was not my job. but upcoming is the IT employment nationwide and international too. will post some ads soon for you HR people to dissect – for sure i designed them wrong… since i don’t have hr people yet.
August 10, 2008 at 1:24 am
@cccritique- then with all due respect, I have to say that your original post reflects someone who hasn’t seen the negative effects of not doing a thorough background/reference check. You’ll see. Hopefully the first time you’re bitten won’t be costly to your company or harmful to your employees.